Turning to the Future

A look at the Vikings edges. Jonathan Greenard, Andrew Van Ginkel and looking at the development of Dallas Turner.

Andrew Van Ginkel, Jonathan Greenard and Dallas Turner made up a great Edge trio for the Vikings.

How did every player do this season? It was a rough year for AVG and Jonathan Greenard as they dealt with injuries throughout the season. But Dallas Turner…… he had a great 2nd half of the season. He stepped up into a player that was worth trading massive capital for. We’ll take a look into their season using advanced stats to see how they fared as pass rushers. But first…

What do the Numbers Mean?

For the stats I charted, I separated each pass rush into different roles/intentions. Every pass rush is not the same, players will have different jobs on each play besides trying to win their rush. The roles are separated into different categories: Winning, Stunts, Containing.

Winning. This is when you are asked to win a rep without worrying too much about containing rules. This mainly happens on passing situations like 3rd and longs or 2 minute drills. I separated it into clear 1 on 1s that are set up by the scheme or plays where you are trying to win a rush, but there isn’t a 1 on 1 matchup set up or someone is in a gap next to you. You can tell if a player is trying to win their rush by how they get off the ball and with technique choices.

Stunts. This is for more schematic movements. Stunts have a Crasher who runs into an OL or pulls an OL away to free up a looper who runs around the crasher ideally to open space. I included slants for when the team blitzes a player and the Edge has to move to a different gap. For Dallas and AVG they did blitz from a LB position so I included it with the stunts category.

Contain. When the goal/job is to keep the QB in the pocket and have eyes on em rather than trying to win the rush. You can win your rush, but not while abandoning your job. Usually this happens on neutral or early downs where you are playing the run first. Can contain normally or with power, aka pocket pushing. Pocket pushing is tough because you have to condense the pocket while keeping contain. I included Coverage plays here or dropping in coverage on obvious passing plays, as that is something you can be asked to do.

As for the plays themselves, I included every pass play where the Edge got a pass key. This includes normal passing plays, plays with trap/power/run look protections (looks like PA, but it isnt, just changing protection schemes), and even some PA plays where the OT pass sets on the backside as the Edge will treat it as a pass rush. I didn’t include RPOs, Screens, PA plays where the player gets a run key and plays the run first, boots/moving pockets, and I disregarded unblocked plays, which happens quite a bit with this team.

For what counted as a Win, I looked at beating the blocker in a way to have a clear path to the QB with using the QB drop as depth and timing. The timing/depth was always top of his drop and a hitch and a half. I didn’t count plays as wins if the Edge wins initially, but the OT was able to recover to keep integrity of the pocket, either by driving them upfield or washing them down if they work inside. I did count plays where the OT was bullrushed to the feet of the QB. Theres a few wins that were more schematic, but I counted them if the OT had enough time to recover, which we’ll see with Dallas Turner later below.

Mad Genius

Brian Flores has a sick mind. Attacks protections and run schemes with so many movements and presnap looks. Just forces teams into making mistakes. It helps having versatile players who can change how the defense looks at any moment. Andrew Van Ginkel played a lot of off ball LB. There were plays Jalen Redmond lined up at 5T all the way to a 2i. There’s a lot of passing downs where you’ll have 7-8 guys on the line of scrimmage, and they’ll either drop 8 or blitz almost everyone.

For the Edges, it was interesting how they were used. Greenard was more of the strongside OLB, and the pass rush mainly ran through him. He shifted between a standup OLB or down DL with his hand in the dirt. He didn’t drop in coverage as much as the other 2 edges. AVG was a true LB, he would play as a OLB off the edge or be a true off ball LB. He was a versatile player who could truly line up anywhere. Dallas Turner was….. a mix of both? He could be that strongside edge, a weakside OLB or even play off ball LB. He played both the AVG and Greenard role, which is one reason why he was highly drafted.

Ginkel Ginkel Little Star

First it’s Ginkin’ time. The Ginkening. The MotherGinker that will steal screen passes from you. The Ginkster that has no regard for Ginking up plays. In the Gink of an eye he will jump in front of passes.

Anyways, neat player. He did deal with concussions and neck issues that sidelined him for a majority of the first half of the season. As a player, he is a smaller speed rusher. A versatile player that can play any LB spot. He did lose a step which maybe it could have been due to injury. When pass rushing, his main moves are the side scissors, stab club, or using a spin move inside. He had a lot of schematic wins and pressures.

Winning: 19.2% win rate, 12.5% of snaps

Stunts: 28.6% win rate, 6.7% of snaps

Containing: 0.6% win rate, 80.8% of snaps

Breaking it down, the win rate when trying to win his reps are at a normal rate for 2nd/3rd options from the few charting I have done. He was barely used to win reps and mainly dropped in coverage or contained. From his 5 reps where he won when getting a real rush in, 3 were over TEs. There was also 12 instances of him jumping a screen or flat route to force an incompletion, batter pass or interception.

AVG working upfield, sees QB step up and works inside for a sack

AVG hitting side scissors on TE, G tries to help, but AVG gets the sack when QB forced to step up

The Grass is Greener-d

At the time of this article, there were some Greenard trade rumours, but after a week in Free Agency I doubt it’ll happen. Anyways, great player.

The defense is built around scheming pressures and attacking protections that way, but most of the pass rushes went through Greenard. He had a majority of matchups set up for him when he played. They would target the weakest OT with him.

He is a power rusher who threatens OTs with that power. His plan of attack comes from him threatening the outside shoulder of OTs. From him attacking outside hard, there’s 3 outcomes that can happen: OT oversets to match Greenard, he spins inside. OT gives a soft set and turns hips to him, Greenard will use power, usually a Bull rush or a Stab-Club. OT undersets after being scared of his power/inside move and then Greenard can hit a double swipe, dip and rip, or a ghost move.

Winning: 34% win rate, 22.9% of snaps

Stunts: 15.1% win rate, 13.5% of snaps

Containing: 4.5% win rate, 63.6% of snaps

A solid season, the win rates were a bit lower than I expected. He did get double the rate of reps where he got to try to win a rush than AVG and Dallas when he was on the field. Greenard had a lot more up and down games, a majority of his wins came against KT Leveston, Nate Thomas, Joe Alt or an injured Taylor Decker. I do get the idea of trading him now… but just keep the good player. With the emergence of Dallas, they can make a legit duo.

Greenard threatens with the outside with a double swipe, OT opens up hip and throws a double punch, Greenard spins inside to almost get to QB

Bull rushes OT into QB

Same play as the Bengals one, threatens outside with a double swipe, OT opens up wide and double punches, hits the spin inside to get to QB

OT gives a soft set, Greenard hits em with a long arm, gets to QB depth and works inside for a QB hit.

Sewell jump sets, Greenard hits a club and rip and gets a hand on QB

Attacks upfield shoulder, Decker slow to get out of stance and is behind. JG hits a long arm on em, decker doubler under hand punches and puts pressure back. JG feels it and hits a strong club to get em off of em. Little tug at end.

JG threatening the outside shoulder again. Decker sees JG flash his arm and double punches with hips to sideline. JG knows this and spins inside for a clean win

After using power and a inside move to slow Decker down, time to win outside. Attacks the OS, decker has same set where he gets his hips to the sideline, but little depth cause of power/inside threat. JG uses a GHOST move, flashes a stab and dips underneath OT’s arms to qb

Now It’s his Turn-er

A tale of two halves for Turner. In the first half he was more used like AVG with him out. 2nd half he took over the Greenard role with him being out. The pass rush went through him.

He was a player that this team gave up a bit to move up a few spots for him. As a prospect, he was a very athletic Edge. Coming from Alabama, he was taught mainly how to stunt, contain, and use a stab-forklift move. He also gave the best of both worlds from AVG and Greenard. He was athletic, fast, explosive, and fluid, while being able to play off ball LB. He was strong, long and could use his explosiveness for speed to power. The main thing is that he only knew how to Stab-Forklift, and his rookie year was mainly about working on him as a speed rusher.

As a pass rusher now, he is Fast as Fucc. His pass rush plan is close to Greenard’s in moves, but the approach is different. He works upfield for two hard steps and either angles towards the OT, or takes a jab step if he is close. He threatens OTs with speed to power, and because he is explosive and fast, that power scares OTs a lot. He can hit strong bull rushes or stab-clubs. He can hit spins inside if you overset. He’ll also just dip around the corner or use a ghost move and fake his stab move.

Winning: 47.6% win rate, 15.9% of snaps

Stunts: 6.9% win rate, 11% of snaps

Containing: 5.2% win rate, 73.1% of snaps

Overall, the stats seem solid. He won a lot when he was able to get a rush in. His win rate as a contain player stands out. It’s a mix of his speed to power allowing him to condense pockets well, and transitioning from containing to winning later in a rep happens quickly due to his speed.

Weeks 1-10

Winning: 23.5% win rate, 12% of snaps

Stunts: 5.9% win rate, 12% of snaps

Containing: 4.6% win rate, 76% of snaps

The first half of the season had him filling in for AVG mainly. He would play off ball LB or drop into coverage a lot. His win rates were still solid overall. There wasn’t much that happened, few highlight moments.

Speed to power bull. Pushes and pulls OT to the side.

RB/TE release outside, Dallas sees this and angles towards OT. Hesis and fakes using a chop, OT double punches and anchors, dallas spins inside for easy win

Speed to power bull

Weeks 11-18

Winning: 64% win rate, 20.5% of snaps

Stunts: 8.3% win rate, 9.8% of snaps

Containing: 5.9% win rate, 69.7% of snaps

Oh yeah, ITS DALLAS TIME!!!! Great 2nd half of the season. This time he filled in for Greenard, but even then, he still was cooking when Greenard played in a few of those games. We can see the future in Dallas. He offers that Speed to Power element as well as being very fast. When Dallas won late, I would be more lenient to counting those reps as wins because he could still get to the QB in a timely manner. Anyways, Roll the Film

Had a few similar plays where teams would chip em with a TE and hold the OT enough with the threat of a blitz. I counted these two as wins because the OT had a chance to recover but didnt count a few where the OT was too late. More of a schematic win, but it works because of how fast and explosive Dallas is so I just gave it to him.

Dallas sees Cross give a soft set with hips to sideline, he flashes a stab move to get cross to shoot his hands and anchor down. Then he hits a stab club and turns the corner for a sack

2 jump sets by OTs where dallas dips underneath or turns the corner on, gets a little tug on both reps

2 reps of using power vs Mbow. Makes life tough for him because he has legit speed to power to dominate weak OTs

The Future?

What next, Dallas looks like he can become a guy that you build a pass rush around. I think this is why the Vikings were listening to offers on Greenard and seem hesitant to pay him. Generally, you force pass rushes through one player and Dallas showed that he looks ready. AVG is a role player and more of a LB, so he doesn’t get affected by Dallas’ emergence. Interesting problem for the Vikings.